Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Moto Rumi technical problems or solutions
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Pharquarx
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Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:34 am

Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by Pharquarx » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:06 am

Worked on the Rumi over the weekend. Runs really great and it is just as ready to go as anything. We have been working on getting the shifting mechanism correct and then the bike will be done. Appreciate the input as far as the fourth gear method, we understand it and tried to apply it.

This is the replacement case and is significantly thicker than the original case.

As you can see from the attached photos, a couple of things are happening. With the thicker case, the quarter gear bumps up against the case prior to the last prawl being engaged. We are inclined to relieve the case just enough to continue to allow the quarter gear to rotate into the correct position. Does the membership have an opinion? You can see the difference in the two cases. A photo of the original case is at http://www.formichino.com/forum/viewtop ... 7&start=25 about half way down the page and the quarter gear is up against the case with the last prawl engager engaged


Also, was wondering if it would be prudent to replace the spring that holds the prawl engagers apart with one that is a little stiffer to hold the prawls in their correct position.

Photos follow, your input is appreciated
Attachments
IMG_3072.JPG
Wondering if replacing this spring with one that is a little stiffer would force the prawl engagers into the prowls.
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IMG_3071.JPG
Another view of the quarter gear bumping up against the thicker case. You can also see that the prawl engager does not sit in the last prawl (upper center of the photo.
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IMG_3074.JPG
You can see that the quarter gear is bumping against the case and the last prawl on the top is not engaged. This is a thicker later case that I obtained and it fits the 1952, just doesn't seem to allow the full range of motion
IMG_3074.JPG (78.84 KiB) Viewed 21206 times

Ian Skinner
Posts: 539
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:36 pm
Location: South Wales UK

Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by Ian Skinner » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:22 am

Hi Charlie

This may be a 3 speed end cover here. Rudolf can confirm if it is and be able to advise, especially, as he will know of any other problems that are to be expected in it's use. On the face of it, it will never select 4th unless you relieve the case as you suggest. Is the original cover too damaged to repair?

Ian

Ian Skinner
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Location: South Wales UK

Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by Ian Skinner » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:29 am

Hi Charlie

Have you had any success solving this problem yet?

Ian

Pharquarx
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Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:34 am

Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by Pharquarx » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:57 pm

Hi Ian,
Thanks for the inquiry.
The short answer is no.
We took the thick case and ground it out so that we could get the range of movement necessary, see attached photo.
We placed it back on the bike, using the fourth gear method.
The bike starts out in first ok.
When shifting, heel, to second, the bike goes all the way into fourth.
From fourth, when I down shift, toe, it will go back down through third, then second and first.

I have both cases back to the machine shop.
The gentleman that I am working with is repairing the finish on the upper part of the original case, which is thinner.
I would prefer the thinner case due to the markings around the oil hole and, as it is the original.
I don't have a photo to offer, but the welding repair that was done some time ago on the upper part is just terrible and undermines the whole look of the engine.
Fortunately I am working with a fabulous machinist and metal worker that is very skilled and has some incredible techniques and aesthetic values.
When he is finished, we will reinstall the original thinner case and see if that solves the problem.
If it does, then I am thrilled.
This is the only thing that prevents completion of the project.
Attachments
IMG_3084.JPG
New thicker case, relieved on both sides to allow quadrant gear the full range of movement.
IMG_3084.JPG (96.36 KiB) Viewed 21058 times

Pharquarx
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:34 am

Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by Pharquarx » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:09 pm

I might add that, setting the struggles aside on the Rumi, I did make great progress on my 1951 Douglas Vespa that is also a current project.
This is the first time, in at least 30 years that it is back to this state, engine in place and up on wheels.
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hugomez
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by hugomez » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:19 pm

Pharquarx wrote:Hi Ian,
Thanks for the inquiry.
The short answer is no.
We took the thick case and ground it out so that we could get the range of movement necessary, see attached photo.
We placed it back on the bike, using the fourth gear method.
The bike starts out in first ok.
When shifting, heel, to second, the bike goes all the way into fourth.
From fourth, when I down shift, toe, it will go back down through third, then second and first.

......
Hi Charlie,

What I understand is that with the little modification at the thicker case you managed to get the bike engage all gears, right?, so the problem is solved even if you want to get the bike with the original case that is now in process to be fix. Is that correct?

About the Vespa, I just can congratulate you for such a great job you are doing of that beautiful scooter. I see how much you care and how impeccable is every step done on the bike, WOW!!!
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Pharquarx
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:34 am

Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by Pharquarx » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:40 am

Hugo,
Thanks for your compliments on the Vespa, it has been a real project to date and, if I knew what I know now, I wonder if I would have taken it on. It is, however, restoration worthy, and as such, I am bound and determined to finish it.

On the issue of shifting on the Rumi. Starting in first, when I want to shift, heel, to go to second, it goes all the way directly to fourth and does not engage at second or third on the way. Downshifting from fourth, toe, it does engage in third and then to second and then to first. The issue is now why does it go directly from first to fourth. Hopefully it will be solved when I reinstall the original case.

hugomez
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by hugomez » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:46 pm

Pharquarx wrote:Hugo,
Thanks for your compliments on the Vespa, it has been a real project to date and, if I knew what I know now, I wonder if I would have taken it on. It is, however, restoration worthy, and as such, I am bound and determined to finish it.

On the issue of shifting on the Rumi. Starting in first, when I want to shift, heel, to go to second, it goes all the way directly to fourth and does not engage at second or third on the way. Downshifting from fourth, toe, it does engage in third and then to second and then to first. The issue is now why does it go directly from first to fourth. Hopefully it will be solved when I reinstall the original case.
Hi Charlie,

Now I get it. I didn't understand the first time how the gearbox was behaving. Hopefully with the original case on it you will get all working fine.

About the Vespa, well, I guess if the project is giving you so much work, at the end the satisfaction will be even bigger. It is looking great so far.
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:06 pm

in the slotted selector guide shaft there are stop pins in the slots to stop the selector forks over running there position between first and fourth it could be one acting on fourth selector worn or missing and allowing it to select fourth straight..away.

hugomez
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by hugomez » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:22 pm

Hi,

Perhaps I am totally wrong because I have not a cover out of the bike to check and compare, but looking at your photos I see that the mechanism that allow to go up and down step by step, is not "sit" at the "tooth" (sorry for the language I am using to try to explain myself)

If that "tooth' have to be sitting in place (instead in the "air" as we can see at the photos of your mechanism), perhaps to solve it the middle spring should be longer, allowing the mechanism to sit correctly making the proper stops.

Again, perhaps it is correct as it is at your photos, I am just guessing.
Charlie Rumi engine problem.jpg
Charlie Rumi engine problem.jpg (92.16 KiB) Viewed 20932 times
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hugomez
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by hugomez » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:09 pm

Hi Charlie,

Trying to find photos of that mechanism I found that one at the forum. (Unfortunately my computer was stolen last month and I lost all the high resolution pictures I took to my Bicarburatore project)

Well, I took that photo when Ian Skinner assembled my engine in Wales. All the components that you can see there are in perfect condition, and as you can see there are differences with the components you have at your bike. The parts that "stop" every step (at least the one we can see at the photo) is longer than the one you have, and using the 4th gear method we can see that it actually sit in place not been at the air.

Can please anybody with more knowledges help here to let us know if I am in the right path or actually confusing more Charlie?
Selector Rumi Hugo.jpg
Selector Rumi Hugo.jpg (148.37 KiB) Viewed 20923 times
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arthur lewthwaite
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:04 am

hello charlie, yes hugo is right, your stops do not have the point on them, like yours have been filled of, i have quite a few of these units will check them tomorrow and let you know what i find.

Lasse
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by Lasse » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:09 am

Those pawls need to be pointed & to be Sharp!
If you cannot get new spares, you could carefully file on the ramped side, to sharpen them (I did it once, with good results)
A new spring would also add to the correct performance...

And to Hugo: A stupid add are coming up, constantly - "Etoro" get a free stock.
I hope you can make it go away for good?
Irritating.

hugomez
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by hugomez » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:20 pm

Lasse wrote: ..............

And to Hugo: A stupid add are coming up, constantly - "Etoro" get a free stock.
I hope you can make it go away for good?
Irritating.


Sorry Charlie for the OFF topic.

Lasse, we do not have publicity at all at the forum. If you get an advertising popping up in your screen, it must be something related with your browser, but not with the forum. I can't help you with it. Sorry.
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:32 pm

charlie have looked at new assembly will get my son to send some picture of selector assembly and picture of grooved selector shaft pins.ithink selector is clicking back wrong way.arthur,

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:37 pm

I have added some photos of the new selector mechanism for you from different angles showing the teeth with no wear.

Arthur
Attachments
Runi Gearbox Part 3.jpg
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Runi Gearbox Part 2.jpg
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Runi Gearbox Part 1.jpg
Runi Gearbox Part 1.jpg (71.23 KiB) Viewed 20670 times

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:40 pm

Another image of the selector mechanism and also the shaft with the pins.
Attachments
Shaft.jpg
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Runi Gearbox Part 4.jpg
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Pharquarx
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by Pharquarx » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:29 am

The Moto Rumi is finally on the road.....Chris was over today and yesterday....we finally got the clutch side cover back from Dan the Machinest, he was able to repair the original to just super condition...it had been badly repaired and welded by the previous owner and it was just horrid....just need to get it polished now. The last issue with the bike was getting it to shift properly and I managed to obtain the correct parts through Arthur Lewthwaite. That, with the new cover, the machine, after 4 years, is now finally on the road. Just need to put some miles on it to break in the engine. Riding gear is correct (especially for here in Southern California, late winter, it was almost 90 degrees Fahrenheit today), particularly with the red Battle of Britain goggles and the Davida helmet. Notice too the Italian license plate that was issued to the bike in 1952 when it was brand new and went to Como in Italy, where it spent it's life until it came to me...
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Outside-Case.jpg
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Ian Skinner
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by Ian Skinner » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:46 am

Hi Charlie. Congratulations, now that's what I call a 'Smile', what?

Ian

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:27 pm

hello charlie great to see your bike on the road and problem solved arthur

Lasse
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by Lasse » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:42 am

You look very happy & confident!
After your struggle with the gearbox, please tell us if it really Works perfectly now?

Also, how does the motor run?
What about the jetting and firing point(s)?
Could be very interesting if you would post a "drivers report" covering the "mechanicals" - together with "what does people say" when you park this very rare motorcycle (and especially, what do they say when they HEAR it?)

hugomez
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by hugomez » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:50 pm

Congratulation Charlie!!!, it is great that finally the bike is in good working condition and make you smile that much. Very good news ;)
My little Formichino here: http://www.formichino.com/pictures1.html

Pharquarx
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by Pharquarx » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:41 pm

So, to answer the questions posed by Lasse.
Yes, it does work perfectly now, shifting, starting, motor running, lots of power, etc.
I have had it running up and down the street and have placed a few miles on it and I am thrilled.
The electronic ignition is great, my friend Chris Lawrence has tuned the carburetor and I am very pleased.

The neighbors are getting used to the sound, they know it's coming up and down the street and they smile and wave.

There is still a little work to do as follows - finish the functioning of the headlight. It is simply a grounding problem and easy enough, polish the clutch side cover and, fix a small leak on the petcock.
Once I get the headlight into working order, I will take it over to the next town.
There is a tendency for the "authorities" to stop and inspect and everything needs to be in working order.
I usually tell them that my bikes get better maintenance and attention than their machines.
Have never had a ticket from them due to mechanical, my stuff always checks out.

Thanks for all of the support from you guys.

arthur lewthwaite
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Re: Struggling with the Fourth Gear Method

Post by arthur lewthwaite » Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:04 pm

hellocharlie,didn't have a lot of time the other day,looking at your bike you have made a really nice job of it,hope you enjoy riding it,now you need to get yourself a scooter(rumi of course) to give you your next project and to find out just how good they are to ride.arthur.

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