My "new" old Bicarburatore

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hugomez
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Sat May 12, 2012 9:37 am

Still a few hours before I go on holidays so I could not miss the opportunity to do some more work on the bike :D

The stator plate is now clean and one of the new points mounted following Ed's recommendation and instruction. The second points set is on the way.

One of the tiny regulator screw for the points was missing, only one of the points had it on. I would like to find it but I guess if is not possible it won't be a big problem.
Do you think this screw was something common in all stator plates or is something that only has Dansi on it? No one of my Honda have it to regulate the points.
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Sun May 20, 2012 6:08 pm

After a short holidays I am back.

The second set of corrects points arrived and following the instruction that Eddie Jackson gave me by email I manage to make the bike start and work more or less correctly. Still I will probably do a few more tests following his instructions, but at least now the bike perform a lot much better than before. Thank you Ed :D

The silencers now make a much lower sound than before, the baffles and packing works well.

Now the bad news.
I only managed to engage first and second gears, not possible to engage third and fourth. I have been around the building 15/20 minutes but all the time only in first and second gears. Many of the time was even difficult to engage second gear because instead neutral was in very easily. So I have to kick several times back and forth until I reached again first or second gear to continue riding.

This is today's video, sorry for the quality, it was shot with the mobile phone.

[youtube]zh71tb9Xdlk[/youtube]

At the video you can see there are not the filters at the fuel tubes. I remove them because in a previous test I thought the fuel did not pass correctly through them, but will put them again.
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Rumi's
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by Rumi's » Mon May 21, 2012 1:45 am

Hugo
Congratulations!!!!!
Excellent motorcycle rumi bicarburatore!!
Greetings,

Juan Nizio

hugomez
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Mon May 21, 2012 8:29 am

Thanks Juan, bit a bit the bike is improving.

This morning I took the time before to go out to remove the right crankcase cover to have a look inside. The idea is try to adjust the gear change mechanism following the instructions that you can see at the Moto Rumi club website. The instructions are at the bottom of this link:

http://www.motorumiclub.co.uk/moto_rumi ... gearchange

After remove the crankcase cover the first thing I have seen deep in the oil was a ball, seem like a bearing ball, but to be honest I have no idea where is this coming from. You can see the ball near a euro coin.

Also seem that the first tooth of the kickstart mechanism is broken. Can anybody please confirm if it is broken or it is ok? I must say that the few times I try to use the kick start pedal, always jump in some point or another, never do the full path smooth and complete.
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Mon May 21, 2012 9:14 am

Having a second fast look I could see that probably the ball is coming from this bearing.

What do you think?
Broken-bearing.jpg
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UHJ200
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by UHJ200 » Mon May 21, 2012 10:15 am

The "broken" tooth is normal, I suspect it is done that way in order to assist tooth engagement when the kickstart lever is depressed. If it were otherwise I can see a circumstance where the tops of teeth might clash and even possibly jam.

The ball bearing (see "Spares & Service Guide" pp28 part 38) should go between the clutch operating lever component (part 16 pp32) and the recess in the centre of the clutch outer (part 40 pp 28).

The "trick" with adjusting the gear selector is not only a matter of matching the marked teeth but that the last mark, the one that engages with the quadrant, not only engages with the correct quadrant tooth but also aligns with the crankcase joint line. That is why the whole assembly has a degree of angular freedom, 3 bolts holding the brass casting (part 1 pp30).

Rumi's
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by Rumi's » Mon May 21, 2012 10:53 am

Hello, the tooth "broken" is normal? I believe that should be fixed with a special welding and to mechanize. Is my opinion.
The bearing is like mentions David, is correct its explanation.
Greetings,

Juan Nizio

tony mooring
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by tony mooring » Mon May 21, 2012 11:16 am

The kick start quadrant is quite normal,as David says.
The loose ball bearing you found is the clutch thrust bearing. Sits in the 'dimple' in the centre of the clutch outer drum.
When assembling it is advisable to fill the 'dimple' with grease to hold the ball bearing in place.

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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Mon May 21, 2012 12:20 pm

Thank you guys for let me know, I feel relieved that this ball is not coming from a broken bearing and the kick-start quadrant is ok too.

David, I guess you are looking to a different manual with different ref. numbers. The one I am looking is this: http://www.formichino.com/forum/viewtop ... f=23&t=557

Just to be sure, the ball is the 9345 88 or the 446 69? (I am not at home right now to have a look)
Ball-bearing-Rumi.jpg
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Why the kick start jump if the quadrant is ok?, where can I check?

Cheers
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UHJ200
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by UHJ200 » Mon May 21, 2012 1:51 pm

Quote:- David, I guess you are looking to a different manual with different ref. numbers.

My version of the Parts Manual can be found at http://www.formichino.com/forum/viewtop ... f=23&t=187

Now, I ask you, would I lead you astray? :twisted: Oh, ye of little faith! (emits sounds of satanic laughter & exits stage left . . .) :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Mon May 21, 2012 2:07 pm

Now looking at the same manual everything is more clear :)

Thanks David
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Mon May 21, 2012 2:23 pm

I will try this evening the 4th Gear method described at the Rumi Club website but I have some doubts (as always)

The method say:


1- Place the clutch ball bearing in the center clutch recess.

OK

2- Check the clutch plunger is in place

OK

3- Make sure the selector quadrant is in the central position

OK

4- Rotate the gear selector drum clockwise to select 4th gear

How can I do this?, if I was not able to engage 4th gear with the lever when the cover was on the bike, how I am going to be able to move the selector drum by hand?

5- Now hold down the rear section of the gear lever to it's stop. The front section uppermost.

OK

6- Check the selector quadrant is now sitting the up position nearly touching the top of the inner casing.

OK

7- Whilst holding the gearlever in this position offer the casing to the engine and push home still holding the gearlever in 4th gear

OK

So, I have almost clear the process, only I do not know how to do the step 4.
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Ian Skinner
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by Ian Skinner » Mon May 21, 2012 4:20 pm

Step 4.

Step 4.1 Remove Circlip from Idler Gear shaft.
4.2 Remove Idler Gear.
4.3 Gently attach Grip Pliers, longitudinally, to Selector drum drive end.
4.4 Grasp rear wheel.
4.5 While gently rocking the rear wheel back and forth a few centimetres,
apply rotational pressure to the drum drive, in stages, until top gear is selected.
4.6 Smile! Take off the Grip Pliers, replace Idler Gear and Circlip.

Ian

UHJ200
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by UHJ200 » Mon May 21, 2012 4:48 pm

I am a little concerned by the amount of rust I see in the pictures, if Ian Skinner's test for selector cam movement shows a reluctance for the cam to move then start suspecting rust within the box. :(

Rotating the cam does require quite a large force therefore I'd be inclined to wrap a bit of copper sheet around the cam pinion, (cut up a bit of copper plumbing tube), and grip over that with a mole grip, no slipping, no damage. :)

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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Mon May 21, 2012 8:08 pm

Thank you very much Ian, now is very clear.

Ed recommended me to check if all gears works before to carry on, so I did it. As you can see there is a mark in the selector drum drive, at the photo I have selected the 4th gear, for the other gears I did not take photo but you can see the result in the drawing.

Have this sense for you?, Is this right?
Moto-Rumi-shaft-positions.jpg
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This is an screenshot of the video from yesterday, there you can see that the sealing need to be fixed at the kickstarted, so I will wait to get it before to carry on with this.

Do I need an specific O ring for this or I can get easily something that would work in a local shop?
Bad-sealing-Kick started Moto-Rumi.jpg
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David, when I bought the bike the crankcase was completely empty of oil. The guy told me that he never used the bike for years, I do not know if he remove the oil before sell it to me (I don't think so) or actually the bike was without it for years, so I guess this is why the rust on it.
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UHJ200
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by UHJ200 » Mon May 21, 2012 9:50 pm

Quote:- This is an screenshot of the video from yesterday, there you can see that the sealing need to be fixed at the kickstarted, so I will wait to get it before to carry on with this.

Do I need an specific O ring for this or I can get easily something that would work in a local shop?


If memory serves that seal has a square cross-section, I suspect you are going to have to start searching the catalogues! An "O" ring might do the trick but I've never had to replace one so I'm a bit in the dark here. While you are checking that have a critical look at the bearing and shaft too. A good bearing and shaft should almost seal by itself while a loose one on the otheer hand will "work" the oil through.

Incidentally those darned cotters that lock the kickstart lever and for that matter the gearchange lever too can be an utter pain to get out, particularly if the machine is assembled. I've had to all but destroy at least one in the past because it was absolutly solid. The answer is to make up specials with a thread on both ends so that they can be jacked out. For neatness you could fit an acorn nut to hide the top jacking thread. I used a plain nut and suffered the odd "sniffy" remark from the rivet counters but with a shiny nut to match the chrome it is hardly noticable and makes life so much easier, big hammers near ali. castings is bad news!

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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by Ian Skinner » Tue May 22, 2012 10:34 am

The indent on the end of the selector drum is in the correct position for your gear selections.

So, I suggest you initially try the top gear method of assembling the side cover, making sure that
the gear lever and the selector quadrant are as far up as you can get them when the cover is shut.

If you still have selection problems after this, then further 'medicine' is required!

If problems do occur, document them accurately ie. identifying which gears won't select and those which do, but
then jump out.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Ian

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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by Ian Skinner » Tue May 22, 2012 10:45 am

Your oil leak,

New replacement seals I have yet to find. If there is one in the recess try to finger it to shape and give it an inwards
push or thump with something round that goes over the shaft, to increase it's grip on the shaft. Make sure you put a
suitably thick washer between the seal and the lever.

I have tried o-rings a few times but they always end up causing too much return drag on the lever.

Good luck again.

Ian

RUMISTI
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by RUMISTI » Tue May 22, 2012 12:33 pm

Hello all rumista
I'm using for a long time, oil seals, 28x22x4 mm, from the bearing shop.
the inclusion of possibly rework something!
or from the large store:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/1-Wellendichtrin ... 3f17ade4a1

regards
Rudolf
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Tue May 22, 2012 1:00 pm

Hi David, Ian and Rudolf

I just ordered a couple of rings from the Ebay link that Rudolf provide us, thanks Rudolf!!!!

Ian, thanks for confirm that the positions of the selector drum are correct, as I commented I am not going to close until I fix the sealing, however this evening I will close following the 4th gear method just to see how it works. I won't put the gasket, just the cover following the instructions and a few screws to be able to test with the bike in the stand and the engine off if all gears works moving the rear wheel.

I guess won't be a problem just to check this even if there is no oil in the gearbox.
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Tue May 22, 2012 9:33 pm

This evening I didn't have almost time to spend in the bike, but at least I put the cover following the instruction of the 4 gear method.

With the bike in the center stand and moving the rear wheel with one hand and fast taking the clutch and changing gear I could make an small test and the feeling is that something is not going well. A few time the lower I could get was a neutral, and I have the feeling that was not the neutral between 1st and 2nd. Trying to engage a lower gear was not possible, remain in neutral. Then I was going up and after engage one gear the next was again a neutral. I can give much details because as I said I had not much time, I will try again if I can tomorrow.

To finish I removed the cover again and the selector drum was in 4th, also the selector quadrant was in the top position if I push the lever.

Lets see if tomorrow I look with more details to try to discover something.

Good night ;)
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by UHJ200 » Wed May 23, 2012 1:34 am

I have to confess that I have become a bit concerned, I didn't much like the look of the state of the inside of your engine, it has something of the look of "the morning after the night before" about it. I'm sorry to have to say that I have a feeling that you are going to have to take it apart sooner rather than later. For the time being can you flush it out thoroughly? I'm a little concerned about the rusty spots that I can see and we have no idea what my be lurking inside, if I tell you that British PoW's of the Japanese made spectacles during their captivity and made rouge from rust to finish grind the lenses you may understand why -- it's abrasive!

Now this gear changing business, the selector cam pinion has the "timing" mark in the root of a tooth, set this mark facing forward and horizontal using the joint line of the crankcase halves as a datum.
Inspect the idler gear that goes between the cam pinion and the quadrant. This gear wheel has two timing marks; you will find that one is on a tooth and the other at the root of a tooth. Place the gear on its shaft so that the "on the tooth" mark meshes with the mark on the cam pinion.
Now check the position of the other idler mark in relation to the crankcase joint line, (the datum), it should line up exactly, if not loosen the bronze cam shaft bearing and rotate until the aforesaid mark is in line and retighten.
From here on you may adopt whatever method you find convenient to correctly mesh the quadrant and cover.

If you still find it impossible to engage all ratios I've a horrible feeling it's all going to have to come apart . . .

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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Wed May 23, 2012 10:26 am

Hi David,

If I have to take it apart I would do it, but again the space limitation is making everything more complicated for me.

A few weeks ago I tried to replace the part at the image below that Rudolf sent to me, but after trying for a while, I just decided not to carry on. The reason is because I had the feeling that to remove correctly this center bar that hold the engine, before I should remove weight of the bike, as for example rear wheel, tank, seat, etc, as much as possible to do not create to much pressure. Am I right?
With the bike in the living room, I just can't do this, so if eventually I have to remove the engine to open it I definitely will have to find a proper place to do it, and I must say that I have no idea where I can do this at the moment, so better to solve the problems without have to remove the engine, at least at the moment. In the future I will always be able to open everything apart if I have a good working place, but at the moment …….
Moto Rumi center bar engine holder.jpg
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This evening I will try to spend some time working at the gearbox. I will read carefully again what you explained and also I will check again how the gear engage using the "mole grip", as I did 2 days ago, but this time I will look more closely for details.

Just one "perhaps" stupid question. It's possible that what is not working correctly is the selector quadrant?
Moto-rumi Selected quadrant-02.jpg
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Beside that I have another question for Rudolf. I ordered 2 oil seals 28x22x4mm from the Ebay website. When I ordered I just thought that I would have to put only one and the other I could keep for the future or for the Formichino if I need it, but then I realized that perhaps I will have to put one from inside and another from outside. Is this right Rudolf?, Do I have to put one per each side?

Also I am concerned about the sealing at the gear lever. Could I use the same sealing size for this or this is a different size?


And just one more question :D

It is easy to find from another bike the part 341 56? The one I have has broken the tread part, is gone, there is no tread. Also the lever has a lot of play. Yesterday I remove the 341 56 part and I introduced again turning the positions bit, now the lever had no play, is better than before, but still there is no tread on it so is not possible to hold it with a nut.
Holder-Rumi-lever.jpg
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Ian Skinner
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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by Ian Skinner » Wed May 23, 2012 10:56 am

It is really worth checking out the functioning of item 13/26 and 13/30. Make sure that all is clean and not gummed up. Pay
particular regard to the state of the teeth on item 13/30 and where the engage on item 13/28. To do this properly, you will have to
remove the gear lever.

Dave's point about the alignment of the bronze support sector item 12/1, from your photo, it appears good.

The replacement cotter pin is 8mm diameter. I have found them in the 'older' cycle shops. Don't confuse them with 9mm or 3/8" variety.

Ian

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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by Ian Skinner » Wed May 23, 2012 11:13 am

Check out my old schematic drawing of the alignment of the various elements of the selector drum through the idler gear to the selector
quadrant. It illustrates Dave's description. It's still on the British Moto Rumi Club site under Gear Change Setup.
However, I have encountered idler gears without any markings, particularly on the mid fifties Sport models!

Ian

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Re: My "new" old Bicarburatore

Post by hugomez » Wed May 23, 2012 12:11 pm

Thank you Ian. Yesterday in the first check I had the feeling that the parts 13/26, 13/29, 13/30 and 13/27 were not working correctly each others. Then having a closer look I realize how to engage it to get the 4th gear position at the top. However still I am not sure that this mechanism is working as should be. I will dismantled, clean, put a bit of new grease on it before mount it again. I will take photos to show the state of all the parts.

I include here the pages of the manual to follow the same ref. numbers, as you know every manual has different ref and is a bit confusing.
Ian Skinner wrote:It is really worth checking out the functioning of item 13/26 and 13/30. Make sure that all is clean and not gummed up. Pay particular regard to the state of the teeth on item 13/30 and where the engage on item 13/28. To do this properly, you will have to
remove the gear lever.
Table-13-manual-Moto-Rumi.jpg
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Ian Skinner wrote:Dave's point about the alignment of the bronze support sector item 12/1, from your photo, it appears good.
Table-12-manual-Moto-Rumi.jpg
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Ian Skinner wrote: The replacement cotter pin is 8mm diameter. I have found them in the 'older' cycle shops. Don't confuse them with 9mm or 3/8" variety.
Ian
Great, thanks!!
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